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Post by blackviking on Feb 22, 2007 17:20:26 GMT -5
The text of the 1st Amendment reads as follows:“ Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. ”Main article: Establishment Clause of the First AmendmentThe Establishment Clause of the First Amendment prohibits the establishment of a national religion by Congress or the preference of one religion over another, or religion over non-religion. Prior to the enactment of the Fourteenth Amendment, and for 60 years thereafter, the courts took the position that the substantive protections of the Bill of Rights did not apply to actions by state governments. Subsequently, under the "incorporation doctrine", certain selected provisions were applied to states. It was not, however, until the middle and later years of the twentieth century that the Supreme Court began to interpret the establishment and free exercise clauses in such a manner as to restrict substantially the promotion of religion by state governments. (For example, in the Board of Education of Kiryas Joel Village School District v. Grumet, 512 U.S. 687 (1994), Justice David Souter, writing for the majority, concluded that "government should not prefer one religion to another, or religion to irreligion".)Main article: Free Exercise Clause of the First AmendmentThe Warren Court held that this meant governments must have a compelling interest before passing a law that unduly burdens the practice of religion. Later court decisions retreated from this standard, permitting governmental actions that were neutral to interfere with religion, but Congress attempted to restore it by passing the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, which the Supreme Court held was inapplicable to state and local government actions, albeit applicable to federal action. City of Boerne v. Flores, 521 U.S. 507 (1997)en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_AmendmentWhat are your views on this as it relates to the concept of "Separation of Church and State"? Are we there yet? If not, are we moving in that direction... or regressing? Is it an ideal worth pursuing at all? What should the Separation of Church and State actually look like in practical terms?
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Post by Blaque on Feb 23, 2007 10:52:46 GMT -5
Personally, I think that the concept of "Separation of Church and State" is being used to ban anything that may have to do with religion and it's getting out of hand.
We continue to hear cases where judges are being ordered not to display the ten commandments, schools are being ordered to teach evolution as fact without presenting alternative ideas and countless other acts where a seemingly vocal minority is forcing atheism (the opposite of ‘God exists’ is ‘God doesn’t exist’) upon the masses.
If a judge is Muslim and decides to keep a copy of the Quoran in court, I wouldn’t think of it as having Islam forced on the rest of the country, it would be merely that judge’s personal beliefs.
That being said, I think that the concept of Separation of Church and State has been taken way too far. I don't like where we are in regards to this right now, and it's only going to get worse.
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jazzlover
B.E. Sergeant First Class
It Takes Pressure to Make a Diamond
Posts: 3,912
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Post by jazzlover on Feb 23, 2007 16:46:12 GMT -5
There are dangers either way, we can in essence become anti-church OR the worst thing is when the state starts to "speak for the church" like the Religious Right would like to do.
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Post by dolphinfan on Feb 24, 2007 9:36:07 GMT -5
The problem is the churches. They put there people in office and restrict, everybody Else rights, so people then strike back!!(sues)(it's the only way to get back at them). Thats why school districts around the country!! are scared to have school prayer or a moment of silence. Most people i know of, are not against prayer, they are against, one type of prayer or religion dominating, this issue. Abortion, for instance!! if you are religious person, and female, don't have one. If you not gay, then live your life. Theory of evolution is a science, not a religion. But religious leaders are always, trying to get it removed!!! from public schools. It's just a science THEORY. If your religion says different, then just believe in that. But don't deny everybody else a chance, to learn the science of life, because your Beliefs;00000 are different. Every new law that restrict a persons rights, comes from the religious right!! (ULTRA CONSERVATIVES). Look at the flap, over the first Muslim congressman. he only wanted to use the Koran, to be sworn in by. The religious right, nearly blew a gasket. People strike back, because they are tired of being used by the church, to get there religious views, made into law. The word marriage, is only two hundred years ole, before that, the ring symbolized that the women was owned, by a man. The Renaissance, is when the marriage, started to become more then ownership! but about love. My point is, nobody is stopping any religious person, from being closer to GAWD, why should they stop us from living truly free. One other point. I believe the people who wrote the Constitution, were trying to give Religion a place to be, whatever they believed, just not the head of state powers. Like in Europe. It wasn't written to free Slaves, unburden women. It was put in there, so if you had a difference of opinions within your church/religion. You had choices!!!! ,of other types!!!!, of the same/or other religions, and you wouldn't be, or shouldn't be persecuted, because of this choice. What the religious right, has done, is EDUCATED there people, put them through the best schools, taught them how to debate an religious issue, and make it a practical one. Creationism is one that comes to mind. Gay marriage is another. Causing millions of faithful people to deal with theses issues, instead of paying attention, to how this country is being run and who should be running it. (GEORGE BUSH< MCCAIN) We are missing out, on many gains because of this, and losing jobs, health care, our schools are tanking. but Illegals can now get loans. So I believe in the separation of church and state, All I have to do is look at the Middle East, and thank GAWD, I live in a SEMI free COUNTRY.
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Post by dolphinfan on Feb 24, 2007 9:36:41 GMT -5
Good to see you back!!! and great post!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by pelicanguy on Feb 27, 2007 23:06:57 GMT -5
The problem is the churches. They put there people in office and restrict, everybody Else rights, so people then strike back!!(sues)(it's the only way to get back at them). Thats why school districts around the country!! are scared to have school prayer or a moment of silence. Most people i know of, are not against prayer, they are against, one type of prayer or religion dominating, this issue. Abortion, for instance!! if you are religious person, and female, don't have one. If you not gay, then live your life. Theory of evolution is a science, not a religion. But religious leaders are always, trying to get it removed!!! from public schools. It's just a science THEORY. If your religion says different, then just believe in that. But don't deny everybody else a chance, to learn the science of life, because your Beliefs;00000 are different. Every new law that restrict a persons rights, comes from the religious right!! (ULTRA CONSERVATIVES). Look at the flap, over the first Muslim congressman. he only wanted to use the Koran, to be sworn in by. The religious right, nearly blew a gasket. People strike back, because they are tired of being used by the church, to get there religious views, made into law. The word marriage, is only two hundred years ole, before that, the ring symbolized that the women was owned, by a man. The Renaissance, is when the marriage, started to become more then ownership! but about love. My point is, nobody is stopping any religious person, from being closer to GAWD, why should they stop us from living truly free. One other point. I believe the people who wrote the Constitution, were trying to give Religion a place to be, whatever they believed, just not the head of state powers. Like in Europe. It wasn't written to free Slaves, unburden women. It was put in there, so if you had a difference of opinions within your church/religion. You had choices!!!! ,of other types!!!!, of the same/or other religions, and you wouldn't be, or shouldn't be persecuted, because of this choice. What the religious right, has done, is EDUCATED there people, put them through the best schools, taught them how to debate an religious issue, and make it a practical one. Creationism is one that comes to mind. Gay marriage is another. Causing millions of faithful people to deal with theses issues, instead of paying attention, to how this country is being run and who should be running it. (GEORGE BUSH< MCCAIN) We are missing out, on many gains because of this, and losing jobs, health care, our schools are tanking. but Illegals can now get loans. So I believe in the separation of church and state, All I have to do is look at the Middle East, and thank GAWD, I live in a SEMI free COUNTRY. Dolphin brings up some great points. The First Amendment is meant to respect all religions, not endorse a certain religion or force a certain way to worship on thers, as some folks want you to believe. Who are the ones always stirring up some mess when it comes to proposed laws? The religious right. These people are no better than the Puritans from the 1600s. Folks like them believe the world should revolved around them and their beliefs. Religion has poisoned politics and has divided this country like one could not have imagined. Instead of looking for common ground and trying to work for everyone, many candidates are kissing up to religious folks so they can raise money and get elected or stay in office and are passing more laws to cater to them, not Americans in general. Instead of respecting different religions, some people - especially the religious right - are attacking other religions.
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Post by dolphinfan on Feb 28, 2007 9:20:06 GMT -5
The problem is the churches. They put there people in office and restrict, everybody Else rights, so people then strike back!!(sues)(it's the only way to get back at them). Thats why school districts around the country!! are scared to have school prayer or a moment of silence. Most people i know of, are not against prayer, they are against, one type of prayer or religion dominating, this issue. Abortion, for instance!! if you are religious person, and female, don't have one. If you not gay, then live your life. Theory of evolution is a science, not a religion. But religious leaders are always, trying to get it removed!!! from public schools. It's just a science THEORY. If your religion says different, then just believe in that. But don't deny everybody else a chance, to learn the science of life, because your Beliefs;00000 are different. Every new law that restrict a persons rights, comes from the religious right!! (ULTRA CONSERVATIVES). Look at the flap, over the first Muslim congressman. he only wanted to use the Koran, to be sworn in by. The religious right, nearly blew a gasket. People strike back, because they are tired of being used by the church, to get there religious views, made into law. The word marriage, is only two hundred years ole, before that, the ring symbolized that the women was owned, by a man. The Renaissance, is when the marriage, started to become more then ownership! but about love. My point is, nobody is stopping any religious person, from being closer to GAWD, why should they stop us from living truly free. One other point. I believe the people who wrote the Constitution, were trying to give Religion a place to be, whatever they believed, just not the head of state powers. Like in Europe. It wasn't written to free Slaves, unburden women. It was put in there, so if you had a difference of opinions within your church/religion. You had choices!!!! ,of other types!!!!, of the same/or other religions, and you wouldn't be, or shouldn't be persecuted, because of this choice. What the religious right, has done, is EDUCATED there people, put them through the best schools, taught them how to debate an religious issue, and make it a practical one. Creationism is one that comes to mind. Gay marriage is another. Causing millions of faithful people to deal with theses issues, instead of paying attention, to how this country is being run and who should be running it. (GEORGE BUSH< MCCAIN) We are missing out, on many gains because of this, and losing jobs, health care, our schools are tanking. but Illegals can now get loans. So I believe in the separation of church and state, All I have to do is look at the Middle East, and thank GAWD, I live in a SEMI free COUNTRY. Dolphin brings up some great points. The First Amendment is meant to respect all religions, not endorse a certain religion or force a certain way to worship on thers, as some folks want you to believe. Who are the ones always stirring up some mess when it comes to proposed laws? The religious right. These people are no better than the Puritans from the 1600s. Folks like them believe the world should revolved around them and their beliefs. Religion has poisoned politics and has divided this country like one could not have imagined. Instead of looking for common ground and trying to work for everyone, many candidates are kissing up to religious folks so they can raise money and get elected or stay in office and are passing more laws to cater to them, not Americans in general. Instead of respecting different religions, some people - especially the religious right - are attacking other religions. My point Exactly!!!! Even if we begged , borrowed or stole the ideas. Americans, not the religious right, made this country into , what it is today. They are trying to forcibly, take us back, to a time, when everybody, but the strongest of us, had to watch there back, if they didn't practice religion, THERE WAY. Pat Robertson, ORAL ROBERTS, they one who had a Prostitution problem JIMMY SWAGGERT??, the one who took meth, and sleeps with men. Every one of the Mega preachers, that are black and taking after, thee aft-for mention men, and a couple of women preachers too. This is my oppinion, but I believe thats why the divorce rate is soo high. They talk about what they believe so much, there is no room to preach, personal responciblity!!!! except of course, if you buy there books then how could your marriage go wrong
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